Dear DC Comics,
*Just a note. Thanks for the link to Felica Day and io9.com and everyone else. I’m stunned by the response. Also I’m approving comments as I can and will approve any comment that isn’t spam or hateful.threatening or outright insulting of myself, my daughter or any commentor here. I adhere to the John Scalzi commenting policy. Please feel free to disagree with our opinion, because that’s what reader feedback is all about. And thanks!
I’m not going to rant like Comics Alliance (though you need to read it), or this one by Andrew Wheeler (also an excellent read), Ms. Snarky says it really well too (Go, read, DC editors. Take notes.)
Instead I’m going to hand over my forum and let someone else speak for me. Pay attention, DC. This is my 7 year old daughter.
And for good measure this is my 7 year old daughter as she falls asleep most nights, reading.
They’re both your books, DC. And furthermore she bought them both with HER money. Her allowance, her birthday and Christmas money. She gets at least one graphic novel and one book for major holidays. She buys superhero movies (we’ve managed to see all the major releases this year except Green Lantern and she’s loved them all.) She has a full-sized cardboard cut out of Spiderman guarding her bookshelf.
Most importantly? Starfire is her favorite hero.
So today I showed her your rebooted Catwoman and Starfire. She is not happy with you DC.
“Why do you like Starfire?”
“She’s like me. She’s an alien new to the planet and maybe she doesn’t always say the right thing, or know the right thing to do. But she’s a good friend, and she helps people. She’s strong enough to fight the bad guys, even when they hurt her. Even her sister tried to kill her, but Starfire still fights for the good side. And she helps the other heroes, like Superboy and Robin and Raven.
“She’s smart too. And sometimes she gets mad, but that’s okay because it’s okay to get mad when people are being mean. And she’s pretty.”
“What do you think about her costume?” (Referring to the outfit on the right)
“Well, she’s a grown up in that picture, not like in the Teen Titans cartoon, so if you’re a grown up and you want to wear something like that you can. It’s okay.”
“Tell me about that Starfire.”
“That’s where she’s starting the Teen Titans again. She’s helping the kids learn how to use their power and not be as sad because their friends died. She even protects them from grownups who want to tell them what to do.”
“Does that outfit make her pretty?”
“Well, no. It shows lots of her boobs though.”
“What does make her pretty?”
“Her long, pretty hair.”
“What about this Starfire? What do you think about her?” (Referring to image on the left from DC’s reboot Red Hood and the Outsiders)
“I can see almost all of her boobs.”
“And?”
“Well she is on the beach in her bikini. But…”
“But?”
“But, she’s not relaxing or swimming. She’s just posing a lot.” *my daughter appears uncomfortable*
“Anything else?”
“Well, she’s not fighting anyone. And not talking to anyone really. She’s just almost naked and posing.”
“Do you think this Starfire is a good hero?”
“Not really.”
“Do you think the Starfire from the Teen Titans cartoon is a good role model?”
*immediately* “Oh yes. She’s a great role model. She tells people they can be good friends and super powerful and fight for good.”
“Do you think the Starfire in the Teen Titans comic book is a good role model?”
“Yes, too. She’s still a good guy. Pretty, but she’s helping others all the time and saving people.”
“What about this new Starfire?”
“No, I don’t think so.”
“Why not?”
“Because she’s not doing anything.”
“Is this new Starfire someone you’d want to be when you grow up?”
*she gets uncomfortable again*”Not really. I mean, grown ups can wear what they want, but…she’s not doing anything but wearing a tiny bikini to get attention.”
“So, you know I’m going to put this on my blog right? (she nods) Is there anything else you want to say?”
“I want her to be a hero, fighting things and be strong and helping people.”
“Why’s that?”
“Because she’s what inspires me to be good.”
See, it’s not about what they’re wearing, though that can influence things. What makes a hero is WHO they are, the choices they make and the things they do. If my 7 year old can tell what you’ve done from looking at the pictures (there is no way I’m going to let her in on the whole emotionless random, amnesiac sex plot line) why can’t you see the problem here?
If this is your attempt at being edgy and reaching out the huge female comic audience out here then I look forward to when this crap collapses around you so someone who gets it can take your place. We’re looking for good stories and great heroes. This just isn’t it.
Thank you, thank you, thank you… and thanks to your beautiful, brave daughter.
The art was pretty good, but I was left with a definite ick factor by this likely to be mediocre title. Poor starboobs, she has always been eye candy, but this book took the exploitation to new lengths. I thought that her undiscerning libido did not make Starfire more alien but rather more of a sex doll, dehumanized and one-dimensional. Take a shower guys, all humans are alike to her, so it’s party time for anyone with a pulse! Weak fan service; this sort of stuff only serves to reinforce stereotypes about the fanboy demographic. In the midst of the new 52 someone needs to remind DC that less can be more…
Thank you so much for this blog post. I love absolutely everything about it. I love that you sat down with your daughter and talked to her about the differences and values in what she is reading and seeing (few parents take the time to do this, but it is so very important!), and I love her responses. She cuts right through to the heart of the matter: the costume isn’t a big deal, and the sexual exploits aren’t even a huge deal either, it’s when you turn women into page decoration and they don’t do any of the awesome things that made them awesome that suddenly you make fans very angry.
Some commenters have said that this doesn’t matter because the comic obviously wasn’t intended for 7 year olds. But that doesn’t change the fact that they’ve taken a hero and made her someone that no person would (or should) ever aspire to be. Your daughter hit it on the nose. It’s not about being offended by boobs or anything. We’re all adults here. It’s that this type of character liberates no one. This is *not* the sexual liberation of women, it’s selling more sexy comics to boys. Bravo to you both.
I hate what DC’s done to Starfire but I object to thinking that adults should have their reading material dumbed down for the consumption of an elementary school CHILD.
Would the author take her CHILD to an R-rated movie to teach her a similar lesson?
D.C. offers a line of books specifically for children. It’s one thing to decry DC’s debasement of Starfire and her history but it’s another to expect a book for older teens and adults to cater to the tastes and needs of a 7 year old.
I’m disappointed in Ms. Lee. This reminds me of stories about libraries pulling out classic books because they might corrupt the children or some other claptrap.
Again, making Starfire into sexbot was wrong. But that’s an adult issue.
I wouldn’t even call it an “adult” issue. More like “oversexed teenager with bad attitude” issue.
As was clearly stated, they didn’t tell her a thing about the issue. The girl could tell what had been done by seeing a single IMAGE from the comic. Not even a particularly racy one. The point here is that the girl instinctively knows what’s wrong from a single image, and it’s somehow gone right over DC’s head. It has nothing to do with sex and everything to do with the fact that Starfire is obviously completely devoid of anything interesting at ALL.
Again (and again and again) no one here is saying that everything has to be “dumbed down” as you put it…we (and the daughter) are actually upset that the cheap gratuitous boobage is itself a dumbing-down of a hero into a sex doll.
The book is rated teen, so of course this wouldn’t be a good choice for a 7 year old.
Also, Starfire was shown to be a hero in the issue, so not sure just what you showed her.
Yes, she was a hero…for the first two pages we saw her in. She killed some things. I remember that.
Then she spent the rest of the comic posing.
Your daughter is a genius. I remember what Starfire was from Teen Titan fifteen years ago. She was the heroic alien and her ‘glands’ were not unhatched ostritch eggs.
Ah the good old days when DC was story based…It remined me of Claremont’s X-Men.
While you make a good point, Star Fire was originally a sexed up character who was kiddified for television. In the original Teen Titan issues she looked very much like she does in the reboot. So while it’s true that the new version is rather gratuitous, that’s just going back to the character’s roots. She always was. What was shown on television was nothing like the original character.
The characters roots were that her people loved *emotionall* first and easily and *physically* afterwards. That’s not what they are showing now.
Starfire was not a “sexed-up character” – she was a very beautiful character that people thought was sexy. Yes, she was drawn as enjoying being nude but she wasn’t drawn posing like a Victoria’s Secret model on crack – the way she is now. George Perez knew the difference between good taste and just outright exploitation. The old Kory was a bit naive…This new Kory is a tramp – plain and simple.
Incorrect, ILJ. She was always shown as a passionate character, not this emotionless zombie. It is NOT going back to the character’s roots. It’s going back to the writer’s adolescent wish fulfillment.
This is the original starfire we grew up with:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-RyLLMzv24HM/Ta3felXFcBI/AAAAAAAAjr4/1dbxewtU0BI/s1600/george+perez.+starfire.+001.jpg
George Perez knew how to take ‘sexy’ and make it tasteful – he rendered her as art, which is nothing like today.
The issue that shot comes from is one in which there is discussion with Donna Troy over whether Kory is being exploited as a model. So the cheesecake was in the context of a discussion about portrayals of women in media.
That’s downright nuanced compared to what we are seeing today.
it’s also the beginning of the arc where deathstroke sexually seduces a 14 year old…..nuanced, huh?
Read your piece a friend of mine was also not happy with the new starfire so he did his version of it tell me what you think http://coyotzin.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d415ncp
I’m rather sad to see how Starfire was shown. Sure she was drawn “hot” but she’s _nothing_ like the Starfire of old. She lacks everything that made her who she was. She doesn’t care about her friends, she doesn’t even remember them which is sad. She always fought against the enemies that hurt her friends.
Not a big fan of the new launch of a bunch of titles 🙁
Thank you for posting it. I’ve just read it on io9. Gosh! I’m so mad at DC for doing that! I love the Teen Titans cartoon and I love comics. Why is it so hard for DC and the other comics companies to do something decent about their heroines?
By the way, your daughter is lovely! Best wishes!
There’s a “Rated T” sign right there on the cover. This book is not supposed to be read by 7 year olds. She seems smart but you are not doing her any good by making her analyze this. Of course she’s going to be uncomfortable, she’s not supposed to fully understand what’s going on.
It’s great that she likes and enjoys comics, but there’s a big variety of books out there, some are for her and some are not. Let’s say she enjoys detective stories instead of comics, would you let her watch Law & Order SVU or would you expect every detective movie in the theater to be kid-friendly? of course not.
The assumption that all mainstream comics should be kid friendly has not allowed the industry to grow and it’s one of the things DC is trying to solve with the reboot.
I also loved the animated series Starfire btw, but I think the argument that it’s horrible because kids can’t read is the same as saying books for kids are bad because they are too sweet for adults. There’s stuff for everybody out there.
Are there ANY comics in the New 52 that aren’t rated Teen? I had trouble finding any that I read that didn’t have a lot of gore and hyper sex and badly written melodrama.
If you look at some of the DC Kids line comics, quality isn’t really a priority.
If her daughter wanted to read an age appropriate comic about Starfire, she would need to read Tiny Titans.
http://dckids.kidswb.com/product/tiny-titans-1/readitnow
So it’s either overly sexual and intellectually insulting adult comics or pandering and equally intellectually insulting kids comics. This is what comics are now.
You are missing the point of this blog post. The author is making a statement about the portrayal of women in DC comics. The author shows that women are commonly portrayed as gratuitous sex imagery for the male viewer. The portrayal is so glaring and consistent that even the author’s 7-yr-old is also able to pick up on this trope. The audience which exists within a male dominated culture does not protest because they have had no impetus to question whether or not this is what it really means to be feminine.
Let’s get something straight: Red Hood and the Outlaws is as juvenile as you can get. There is nothing “mature” about a dead-eyed, enotionless sexbot whose only purpose is male sexual gratification. It’s demeaning to women, but also to men with a brain who are being told, “this is what you want to see.”
“Mature” doesn’t mean throw a lot of sex, violence and cursing into your comics. It wasn’t mature when Image did it in the early 90s and it’s not mature now. It’s lazy, juvenile, unimaginative storytelling and it only digs comics into an even deeper rut.
The comics people regard as classics? They were enjoyed by both kids and adults. Comics created the rut they’re in because of emotionally-stunted fanboys who still think like horny 12 y/os.
Hi, I’ve a few words. And I want to make some things clear before I state my case-
1. I am an adult male.
2. I liked Red Hood and the Outlaws #1.
3. I didn’t particularly like Starfire’s portrayal in it, but I don’t think DC has committed some heinous crime by writing her that way.
Now, Miss Lee. This series as a whole is supposed to be about these ‘outlaws’ who are starting off damaged. They are all intended to be extremely flawed characters from the get-go, and this is done to show character growth as we see them overcome these flaws and heal over the course of the comic.
Your post indicates that the new Starfire is a poor role model, and you are absolutely correct. However, she isn’t intended to be a role model. Look at the other two protagonists. Jason Todd is a vigilante who murders the criminals he tangles with. Roy Harper is a hired gun (bow?) who also kills, and is a drug addict. None of these are characters you’d want your kid to look up to, but that doesn’t mean they’re objectively bad or poorly written. It means the book isn’t for you, and certainly isn’t for your daughter.
Which is absolutely fine, of course. To each their own. There are plenty of stories about proper heroes that convey a sense of strong moral judgment to the reader, even in the new 52. Like Wonder Woman, for instance. You should give that a read, #1 was a very good issue (mind a bit of gore, though) and is probably something you’d enjoy a lot more.
To summarize: While this issue certainly isn’t for everyone and you don’t have to enjoy any part of it, you shouldn’t condemn DC for straying off the beaten path of traditional super-heroism. There are a great many female characters in the new 52 and I personally believe it’d be pointless and uncreative to write every last one of them to be a heroic, morally sound role model intended for grade schoolers to idolize.
Also:
“We don’t need to corrupt characters presented as kid friendly in one forum into sex addicts to get our kicks.”
You might want to know that Starfire was always pretty promiscuous. She existed as a comic character before that cartoon ever aired and comes from an alien culture that believes in openly loving many people, including physically. Her cartoon incarnation is the anomaly here, not the other way around.
All good points. And antiheroes are a wonderful reason to love comics too.
These are very good points, but also keep in mind that Ms. Lee’s daughter is a child in the United States of America. This comic is rated T for teens, yes. But that doesn’t mean you have to be a teen to read it. Many of the themes presented in these more “mature” comics are themes that she will encounter multiple times on any given day, even with the most strict policing of content on her mother’s part. It is a part of how our society functions as a whole, primarily through advertising.
Now, that said, I feel that the most responsible thing that any parent can do for their child is to be there with them as they’re learning about these things, so that they can explain why something is presented the way that it is, as well as why they should/shouldn’t repeat the behavior or words. Clearly, from the conversation listed above, Ms. Lee’s daughter is a very intelligent little girl, and one who has been taught that “if you’re a grown up and you want to wear something like that you can. It’s okay.” To me, that demonstrates that this little girl is already far more mature on an intellectual level than most of the seven year olds that I’ve encountered, probably because her mother has explained these things to her in a constructive manner as opposed to trying to hide them from her.
Personally, I know that this tactic works well with children. I was watching South Park as a kid when it first came out (I don’t remember the year, but I am 22 years old now), and both my mom and dad would sit down with me and watch it, explaining why a joke was funny and why to NEVER repeat it (and I never did). To me, that was a priceless learning experience, because I was able to learn about the same themes and ideas in a constructive manner that I otherwise would have had to learn about from my peers, and I am endlessly thankful to my parents for that.
This little girl is part of a fandom – she loves Starfire. The reason that she’s upset is that Starfire isn’t Starfire. She’s someone masquerading as Starfire, and doing so in a horrible fashion. Sex in any storyline is not inappropriate, provided that it isn’t splayed out in front of you like you’d see in The Boys. I believe that I began sex ed. around her age, and so that’s something that she’s going to be vaguely aware of. DC Comics has done a very good job of making sure that their sex scenes are not gratuitous or blatant, unless the comic book has the appropriate rating for the content. And while the pre-reboot Starfire was also a very sexual being, she was a very sexual being in a very tasteful way. She wasn’t an emotionless sex-doll; she was a person with thoughts and feelings and love and hope, and a strong sense of right and wrong. This Starfire… Isn’t anything.
The problem here is that this Starfire:
A.) Went from Venus de Milo to Paris Hilton in her portrayal (minor issue, not much more than a mild annoyance)
B.) Seems to have little to no friends for being from a race that connects to people emotionally very easily (bigger issue, since that’s always been the core of who Kory is, or at least a big part of it)
C.) Is presenting an image of femininity that isn’t appropriate even for teens. At this stage, she’s teaching girls that it’s okay to be eye-candy, and that it’s okay to have random emotionless sex. (major issue, especially for girls of any age who don’t know much about comics)
Girls who are breaking into comics or who had been fans for years are going to have one of two reactions. They are either going to drop that storyline like a deadbeat boyfriend out of sheer disgust, or they are going to drop DC and possibly all other comics because this portrayal is so grossly misogynistic that they don’t even want to give other comics a try.
I completely respect your opinion, but I think that there are even deeper issues here. I think that it is funny on some strange level that Ms. Lee’s daughter picked up on the sex-doll portrayal of Starfire, but that her request to DC comics was, “I want her to be a hero, fighting things and be strong and helping people.”
She wants a hero that will DO something in the face of adversity, not one who will pose half-naked for attention. Not only that, but she says that Starfire inspires her to be good. Like it or not, this little girl has chosen her role-model, and because of the anomaly that was the television show, DC comics now has a responsibility to her and all of the other boys and girls who grew up with real heroes that had real substance. They owe it to her and everyone else to create a Starfire who IS Starfire, not just some sex nut who doesn’t have any friends to fight for.
That said, I love that this little girl is reading comics. I honestly wish that I’d been reading them for longer than the last five years, because some of the heroes and role-models that DC, Marvel, and all of the other creators out there have produced would have done me worlds of good growing up. I hope that in spite of this, more young women of all ages can get into and appreciate comics – and hopefully DC will listen to the responses they’re getting now, and maybe advance Kory’s development into a real person a little faster, for their sake.
While I certainly understand your perspective, to me, the issue feels like an illustrated letter from Geek Penthouse. It seems like a cheap ploy to boost readers by giving into adolescent fantasies… like say, fan-fiction. From a story-telling point of view, there are various ways to show that Starfire is damaged aside from being emotionally unconnected and promiscuous. It also seems to undermine sexual liberation in women with the implication that women that initiate sex without emotional attachment are “damaged” (not that Starfire’s character seemed sexually liberated).
I am all for mature comics (though mature does not only mean sex and gore), but regardless of the targeted demographic I want good story-telling with characters that have depth. Starfire seemed less like a character, and more like a sex-toy for the reader’s entertainment. I also wouldn’t say that DC expanded the definition of heroines; a scantily clad beauty constantly posing for the reader… they really just made her sleep around.
My true issue is comic companies desperation attempts to boost readers. Comics are simply a medium to tell stories through a combination of art and text. When the focus shifts away from the story and onto various gimmicks… then you start to lose me. I have mostly dropped superhero comics; my pull list mostly consists of creator-owned and independent comics. Looking back I feel like I have lost some of the characters that meant so much to me in my 30 years of life, but I’m tired of wasting time and money on gimmicks.
I have to take offense here in regards to Roy Harper being a hired gun who is a drug addict. Whether we’re talking reboot or pre-DCnU, half of your statement is off.
Taken from the POV of the DCnU: Lobdell has said that Roy is NOT going to a drug addict in the reboot. The cover of the third issue seems to indicate that he was at one point, but he’s not at the moment. Hired, gun, perhaps. He does refer to himself as a soldier of fortune.
From the POV of pre-reboot madness:
Roy Harper is one of my role models. I am a 30 year old female with a messy past, and I’ve made some bad decisions regarding behavior. I’ve paid for my mistakes. I looked to comic books for escapism, and I found Roy Harper. Who made a terrible mistake in turning to drugs, and even he recognized it. He promptly clawed his way up and started working for the DC Universe’s version of the DEA to help other kids from making those same mistakes. Upon discovering he had fathered a child, he manned up and took care of her instead of abandoning her like so many others do. He was loyal, practically to a fault, to the point that he briefly led the Outsiders, before deciding of his own will that he wasn’t cut out to be a leader. Yes, he eventually fell in Rise of Arsenal, but even if one accepts that what happened in that storyline makes sense, he dragged himself back AGAIN. Screwed up and was partially responsible of an act that he will never, ever be forgiven for (the death of Ryan Choi), nor does he deserve to be forgiven for it, but he didn’t stay at that level. He once again clawed himself out of addiction as he realized that even if he was irredeemable, letting Slade drag the Titans down to their level wasn’t something he could allow to happen. The man’s last act in the pre-reboot DCU was to kick Deathstroke in the head.
Roy is one of my heroes, one of my role-models. If he could be a HERO after overcoming a heroin addiction, I can damn well overcome my addictions and weaknesses in order to be something as simple as a decent human being. He proves that it’s possible to be something good even after you’ve screwed shit up. Proof that one mistake isn’t going to destroy you forever.
So I think it is doing a huge discredit to the character and showing remarkable short-sightedness to say there’s nothing in Roy that people could look up to.
(Jason I won’t argue over. I almost wish I could, because I hate what they’ve done to him, but I’d have no basis to do so)
In short, there’s nothing wrong with antiheroes. I like them. I prefer my protagonists to have weaknesses. An amnesiac sex-bot who gets five panels devoted to her ass, however, is not an antihero. You can’t sympathize with something without emotions. You can, however, draw 8 panels dedicated solely to her ass and tits.
“You might want to know that Starfire was always pretty promiscuous. She existed as a comic character before that cartoon ever aired and comes from an alien culture that believes in openly loving many people, including physically. Her cartoon incarnation is the anomaly here, not the other way around.”
Actually, both are an anomaly. You might want to know, before you get all sanctimonious, that you invalidated your own argument right here: “comes from an alien culture that believes in openly loving many people, including physically.” Where in the book does it show here openly loving anything or anyone? She’s offering sex. Like it’s expected of her. The original Starfire you’re claiming the current one is like, wasn’t like that at all.
Yes, she was polyamorous as done by Wolfman and Perez. She showed her love and affection openly, physically and verbally. Where is that in the new version? Did you get pages the rest of us didn’t?
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lulz
yet the book you show her reading is ok. Nice shot of Starfires boobs and butt. And a very sexy Cassie pic too. Nice.
Floyd, it’s very nice of you to highlight how pervasive the fanservicey nature of superhero comics has become (as long as you are a straight male). Thanks for helping Michelle make her point even if you only intended to insult her by calling her a bad mother ^_^
/Came here from the io9 post, great blog!
Kids shouldn’t be reading comics, they should be playing in traffic or working the salt mines.
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Sigh, I used to defend superhero comics, there isn’t anyway they CAN’T be sexualized (to a degree). Yeah, you’re right, bad writing (and exploitive, lazy art)is the real culprit here, but hot damn, that bad writing has a bad habit of expressing itself in terms of sexism. I’ve been wondering for a few weeks who are the new readers this reboot is supposed to be aimed at. I know this: it ain’t young girls.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
I have a six year old who loves the Teen Titans cartoon. And while I agree that this comic is obviously not targetted at that audience, I was personally disappointed that the Starfire who had such a big heart now is represented in the comic as a heartless, amnesiac bimbo.
I’m not basing my opinion on the cartoon as I have read a lot of the comics. Sure she had sex but she cared, not this whole “meh whatever” attitude she seems to have now to it.
To be honest it’s not that the comic is more adult that bothers me, it’s the total change in character. I think she deserved better.
i don’t think i’d ever hand out any comic book to a 7-year old that is rated 5 years above their age. what were you trying to prove here exactly? DC’s new 52 books are also notoriously under-rated, all the T books are really T+ or Mature Readers, 7-year olds shouldnt be near them. Why not get your daughter the wolfman/perez comics instead?
Truly mature readers will gag in disgust at this book. By mature, do they mean “Adolescent minded men who can’t get laid”?
Has your daughter read Supergirl: Cosmic Adventures in the 8th Grade? If not, let me know and you are inclined to have her check it out, I will send a free copy to her. For full disclosure – I am the author of said book. I wrote it specifically so that younger girls could have a character in comics they could look to.
http://dckids.kidswb.com/product/supergirl-cosmic-adventures-in-the-eighth-grade-1/readitnow
I love knowing that this book exists. Keep up the good work!
I haven’t read the story, but from your cropped out photos, it does look like Starfire was relaxing at the beach. Maybe she was off duty? I am not saying comic book artists should use sex to sell comics all the time, or portray all female characters like this, but there are “all age comics” aren’t there? Sure most of them portray a more morally acceptable Starfire. Maybe your daughter should go read those instead.
whilst there are good points made here, the writer also rendered them invalid by the way they portrayed this whole thing. for a start, i know for a fact, that comic book is rated 13’s and over- so immediate failing on the parents part by giving the sole review standpoint to their 7 year old, and then trying to justify that decision by comparing it to a version of the same character in a cartoon marketed to pre-teens. when i was growing up, there was a “Rambo” cartoon, my parents didn’t expose me to “First Blood”- a movie about a murderous, shell shocked, disenfranchised vietnam vet, when i was 7, and then smugly ask me to compare and contrast. just sayin.
Sorry, get rid of that last comment, on re-reading it comes across as having completely unjustified ammounts of venom. stumbled on this article, agree with most of your points. tired. sorry,.. keep up what i can only assume is good work.
(i’ll check that out later).
i just found your blog and this posting in particular, and shared it with my eight year old daughter, chloe. she and i are both big fans of teen titans, and chloe is a big fan of starfire in particular. chloe would like to post the following:
“My name is Chloe, and I totally agree with you.”
She wanted to express her support for this post. Thanks!
As a longtime comics reader, and a male firmly in the 18-34 demographic with no children of my own, I’ve been trying to wrap my head around the outrage to this book. I don’t mean that in a negative or snarky way, I mean I’ve literally been trying to understand why it upset so many people. I _wanted_ to understand. This post finally crystallized it for me. I get it now. And it’s so obvious that I feel like a complete blockhead for not seeing it before.
Thank you for sharing this.
I wanted to surprise you with this, but I realize there’s an important question I must ask before I can finish. Several of my female comicking friends and I are doing portrayals of your daughter as a superheroine, because she’s got the right attitude about what a hero should be! But I need to know what color her eyes are to finish this.
I sound like a creeper now. Sorry.
Wow! She has blue-gray eyes.
I like how most of the commenters think that this is about Starfire’s clothing, and not her new useless “personality”.
Agreed. Because obviously this is just a superficial problem 😛 Nevermind that if they read the entire post, they’d see that her daughter wants Starfire to be a real hero who fights stuff and is strong and there for her friends.
Actually, I wouldn’t recommend Wonder Woman #1 either, for different reasons, but I don’t want to derail your excellent thread here, so I’ll post a link to the discussion here:
http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2011/09/new-improved-wonder-woman-couldve-been-newer-more-improved/
I agree about the concerns with Starfire. I could almost care less about whether she has lots of sex or no sex at all. It’s the really sad part about not remembering or caring about her friends and loved ones from the past. Some people have pointed out that she had a lot of trauma of some kind in the last couple of years of the previous continuity, but, well, that was pre-reboot (and it IS a reboot; it’s just that some characters have more continuity in common with the last universe). DC really dropped the ball here.
Your daughter may like the new Young Justice cartoon (no idea how the comic is); Megan (Miss Martian) is very much like the classic Kory, though still her own character.
This may also be a good time to invest in those collected reprints of, perhaps, the classic Teen Titans–at least the first 50 issues, plus the Tales of the Teen Titans miniseries which has an all-Koriand’r issue. (Still may be heavy, but better than this.)
And Wonder Woman definitely has some great runs–again, perhaps not the latest one if issue #1 is any indication, and even at its best it’s kind of squicky with the horses’ severed heads.
I kind of thought the new DC was trying to bring in new and younger readers, like the people who have been watching the cartoons and movies, rather than the stereotypical 40-something straight males that were already the main target audience.
And bless your daughter. 🙂 I hope there is good stuff for her to enjoy.
(I suggest all of Tom DeFalco’s run on Spider-Girl, too, by the way, available in trade paperbacks.)
I think I’m with your daughter, and you. DC is shooting for the modern teenaged boy, pushing sex and meaningless violence really hard.
I expect they’ll get the sales spike they want for a few months, and then their sales will drop into the toilet, and in a couple of years, they’ll reverse all this crap. Then Dan DiDio and Jim Lee will be demoted to some peon posts in the company, probably become dissatisfied, and start company after company, failing time and time again.
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I think commenters who are talking about the comic being “age appropriate” are kind of missing the point. It’s not whether a seven-year-old should be reading it, but whether women are being presented in the books as actual people (alien or not) or (to steal from “The Guild”) just as props for the writers to hang their sick fantasies on.
That, I think, is the problem. A seven-year-old can’t articulate that, of course, but she knows something is wrong there. As she said, “She’s not doing anything.” And, as the writer points out, it’s not about the clothes. If her daughter gets that, we should be able to as well.
Should I feel bad for being mildly amused that this blog is criticizing the new starfire with a picture of the little girl having a graphic novel of the “Super Slut” version (Michael Turnere’s) Super Girl?
This is awesome! You should have your daughter do commentary for more of the reboot, I bet she would have some insights that the DC editors are still clueless about!
7-yr old girl? I don’t think that is DC Comics target demographic.
Clearly, their market research analysts and in-depth economic forecast planners have (going forward) determined that the best outlay/return ratio can be synergized by focussing on the sweaty 37-yr old male still living at home with mum reminiscing about the great times back in the day, or the ever popular sweaty 15-yr old male too scared to just login to a pr0n site, or the very scary but lucrative creepy fanart-fanfic-fanpr0n sector.
Despite your very clear evidence, DC comics do not believe 7yr old girls represent a market sector with a high enough disposable income.
When you look at things in market-speak it all becomes much clearer…
Ps, I agree totally with your daughter by the way.
I just followed a link to this article by way of Facebook, and like a number of the other commenters, I agree that Your Daughter Is A Genius!
I’ve been profoundly underwhelmed by the whole DC reboot; what recurs most in my mind is “What the deuce were they thinking???”
Man, this is absolutely, unbelievably brilliant. Thank you.
Your post sums up everything that the comics field can and should be…and too rarely is. Thank you!
I want to make a few side comments before I bow out. (But feel free to keep discussing. It’s all good.)
-My daughter didn’t read Red Hood #1. I wouldn’t let her either because of the violence or the sexual content. I asked her what she thought based on a few panels, so yeah, it’s not a perfectly neutral opinion.
-I’m not calling for all comics to be PG. I just think it’s questionable for DC to be selling Starfire as a sex bot and a Tiny Titan *at the same time*.
-I do hope they turn this into something interesting, but I probably won’t follow along long enough to find out. After all I’m just giving reader feedback. DC is free to do what they want with their characters.
-Also the idea that stories like Hero Squad, Tiny Titans and Batman The Brave and the Bold appeal 100% to kids in a certain age range is silly. We were probably all eager to check out the grown up books not just for excitement, but because we wanted deeper, more meaningful stories. In the Teen Titans cartoon they did tackle Starfire’s sister trying to enslave and kill her and Raven, their buddy being the spawn of a demon and destined to destroy the world. In the Teen Titan graphic novels they deal with morning over character deaths and Slade’s psychosis. Having already discovered this level of storytelling how do you expect a kid to be happy with (quoted from the Amazon description of Tiny Titans #1) “Adventures that include “welcoming” a new principal, getting a new dog, babysitting younger siblings, and fighting for one’s spot in the playground are told in gag vignettes, most lasting 2-3 pages.”
-One of the missing pieces here is that her older brother is autistic and yes, she’s 7, but she’s also been the social “speaker” for him since she could speak. She’s always been rather eloquent and expressive because having a sibling with communication problems can force you to communicate for them. I find discussions like this really helps me not underestimate her perceptions.
That said, have fun!
I hope the html in the following works. If not, please nuke this comment.
You say If this is your attempt at being edgy and reaching out the huge female comic audience out here […] but from reports like the following:
I think you are being excessively charitable here; it seems to me unlikely that DC cares about female customers in any real way. This is the same company that thought Minx was an appropriate name for their aimed-at-teenage-girls line.
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Awesome staged photographs, bro
Thanks Michelle for sharing this moment! Don’t let the comment trolls tell you what your kid should / should not be reading. You’re obviously rearing a child who can see some of the load-bearing members of the often invisible structural privileges built into our society. As a parent…I think you should be proud.
>Bryan
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So well written. And thank you. This perspective gives me hope….and I’m angry with you for making me so emotional first thing in the morning. 🙂
Thank you so much for this.
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I love your daughter’s zeal. She’s a smart one! And bonus points for the Superman sheets and comic book/graphic novel love! 🙂
+1
Sad but true! Your dauther have a fantastic perception!!
Reading what your daughter said reminds me of why I first got interested in superhero comics back when I was a kid. It also reminds me of why, as an adult, I want to keep reading superhero comics as, but don’t actually bother with very many.
Thank you for a wonderful article. While I agree with some people here that this book is not intended for 7 year old, the message is clear none the less.
What is happening is that female heroes are no longer strong, independent and good role models for girls and women. Now they are turning into scantily clad sluts who spend there time having sex as opposed to saving the world and helping others.
This needs to stop. It honestly feels like comic book creators in this field are trying take any woman they can get there hands on and turn them into sex objects to simply stand there and be ogled at.
Since they are heroes, these comics are thereby suggesting that these sorts of characters are what women should aspire to be like, which is disgusting.
Similar sentiments about Catwoman. I’ve always admired her, and I’m not happy with how she’s presented in the reboot. Thank you, 7-year-old daughter, for expressing this, and I really hope that DC listens.
why would you admire her…she was always a villian? so a violent criminal is cool with you, but a consenting adult aka a slut is a step too far?
I’ve always had a certain affinity for thieves. While this is odd and a bit inexplicable, especially for someone like me who values Justice so highly, I think part of me admires that a thief, especially one who can work behind the scenes without direct violence, is living by the stimulation of the mind. In fact, I find the pursuit of such criminals to be far more fascinating than the pursuit of violent crimes. Not to mention I could picture myself enjoying a conversation with such a person, about why they chose to do this. With someone who is guilty of a violent or sex related crime, I would just be focusing on those details and I would find the person purely repulsive.
And it’s not so much that she’s a consenting adult. This little girl also pointed out that this version of Starfire is an adult and capable of doing whatever she wants. Catwoman is the same. It’s the insinuation that, as a woman, she can use sex and sexuality as weapons… something that, if presented in a male character, would come across as completely unacceptable and leaning too heavily toward rape.
Starfire’s outfit and Catwoman’s sexuality are something of a “fan service” here, I think, and male fans at that. It’s almost as though the creators of these comics are justifying the objectification of women and minimizing the hero aspect (e.g. Starfire) or the intelligence capacity (e.g. Catwoman).
Similar complaints were made about the trailer for Batman: Arkham City, in which Catwoman is shown at her curviest, and even shown to kiss a thug before plowing him into the pavement. It can be argued that she uses the arsenal at hand, which includes her femininity, and I like the more subtle references made in the trailer as opposed to the more blatant depiction in Catwoman #1.
One of my favorite thieves, Arsene Lupin, is a known womanizer and even fathered a child to the queen of some country. However, all this seduction and the like takes place off screen, as it were, in reference instead of directly described. I think such “camera blinks” allow the reader to accept such “indecency” without feeling uncomfortable, and allow children a greater portion of innocence/comfort while at the same time acknowledging that there is such sexuality in the world. Why, for example, cannot Starfire be posing like she is in these pictures, but a little more covered? The point comes across just as much, without so much skin.
Perhaps I’m rambling too much, but the point here seems to be that blatant sexual objectification is fine by DC’s standards, when such practices often make women uncomfortable.
It makes me disheartened and sad how many people are saying it’s not a problem because of what Starfire used to wear.
To me, that hardly makes any difference. Clothes are not what makes a character a role-model or not, nor does sexual behavior. Sure, if would probably make it inaccessible to a younger audience, but I for one would not have a problem with a male or female superhero that decided to wear no clothes if it served a character or narrative purpose. Or even if it was less blatant. Draw a character that way as fan service if you please, but DON’T make it the point of a two-page spread with a preteen boy drooling helplessly as he uploads a picture of her to the internet. Lobdell and his team could have JUST as easily fulfilled that plot point by having a survivor or witness of her violent massacre on the soldiers take a picture. It would have made more sense, too, since then random plot!guy could have been searching for information about people using strange powers instead of…what? ….hot tanned women in scant clothing?
Clothes do not make the man, and costumes do not make the superhero. Starfire could wear a metal bikini and still be a strong, amazing young women who cared deeply for people. Sometimes TOO deeply, leading to her doing some less-than-heroic things, but she cared and she fought for what she believed in. And she was ALWAYS in full control of herself and her sexuality. Her method of learning languages, for instance. “You have to admit it’s more fun this way! *grin*”.
There’s also the problem with the way that Roy is now being presented. He is obviously confused by the fact that she remembers nothing, but see it as little reason to avoid sleeping with her. Now, Roy Harper has been sexually active for years, but the fact that the first thing he does upon learning she doesn’t remember Dick is leer lasciviously makes him an exploitive asshole instead of someone who uses sex for release and comfort (neither of which I see as a problem unless it becomes compulsive). Not only is Starfire an insult, but Roy is too, portraying exactly what Lobdell thinks the reaction to his character should be.
It is not the clothes, or lack thereof, that make the hero. It is the behavior. And Starfire is now a lobotomized rabid cow.
Her memory issues are part of the plot, the boy uploading the picture so Crux can see it and EVENTUALLY join the team is a huge part of the plot…if you give it more than 22 pages.
She is on a team with a resurrected ex-Robin who is a psycopath, and a former junkie…they work as mercenaries. This is not a team of role-models no matter how much you want it to be, they are anti-heroes.
And if that’s the case than 2/3rds of that team don’t make sense. Rise of Arsenal has obviously been undone, as Roy has two arms, his daughter never existed, and he’s not currently addicted to drugs. All that into account, Roy’s fall from screwed-up hero to anti-hero is baffling. Maybe Lobdell has some great plan to explain it, but given that Conner Kent now has a consciousness that should probably make it impossible for him to function as a single organism, I somehow doubt it.
Starfire was, at some point, someone that Dick COULD fall in love with. And what we see from Nightwing 1 is that Dick, at least, is somewhat himself. Now, Dick is human and recognizes attractive women when he sees them, but the ones he’s been involved with have always had depth. So even within the context of the DCnU Starfire doesn’t make sense.
I’m not saying the picture being found online wasn’t necessary and an important point of the plot. I’m just questioning why it was important that the photo be of Starfire posed like that. I’m pretty sure “boobs” are not the main characteristic of Tamaraneans, and the computer making the match would have made a great deal more sense if it had also been cued in to search for, I don’t know, glowing eyes (closed in the picture the boy took), flaming hair or energy blasts?
As many people have said: A T-Rating and slapping “antihero” on a character is no excuse for contrived and shallow character portrayals. I would like to add to the same that just because a book HAS a T-Rating doesn’t mean it has to get that rating for each criteria. With Jason on the team it makes sense that there’s going to be a lot of violence in the book. I’m fine with that. Give it a higher rating and let Jason blow people’s heads up and torture them. I won’t be thrilled about the violence, but it does ring true to the character, who is a disturbed sociopathic killer. On top of that, being a sociopathic killer makes sense for a character who literally REMEMBERS BEING BRUTALLY MURDERED. As many, many people have pointed out Starfire’s character, the one Dick fell in love with, is not one who has sex because she’s bored. She had sex because she loved and enjoyed life and physicality and liked sharing physical pleasure with people she cared about. Here, she’s making zero connection with Roy before she sleeps with him, and one can only assume as little a one with Jason, from the way he talked.
So, yes, it hurts me that one of my favorite characters is now an antihero rather than a hero, probably because of a plot point that no longer exists. That is not the source of my frustration, though.